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	<title>Comments on: Mark your forehead</title>
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	<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/</link>
	<description>small bites to think talk &#038; walk</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Natalie Shell: think talk walk &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On My/One&#8217;s Role</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-17025</link>
		<dc:creator>Natalie Shell: think talk walk &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On My/One&#8217;s Role</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 10:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-17025</guid>
		<description>[...] story source - not sure of the original but I had originally posted it here in January in the comments - will try to find from where later. Image [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] story source - not sure of the original but I had originally posted it here in January in the comments - will try to find from where later. Image [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Natalie Shell</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-6738</link>
		<dc:creator>Natalie Shell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-6738</guid>
		<description>The Gemara relates that one who sees a river in a dream can expect to find
Shalom, peace. A river is beautiful and useful when it stays within its
boundaries, and so destructive when it overflows.  Peace requires each
person to recognise his place and the unique roll he has to play, while at
the same time recognising the contributions and worth of his fellow man.
Rav Zusya was asked if he would like to change places with Abraham our
Patriarch.  His response was that only one Abraham was created and one
Zusya, and nothing could be gained by changing places.  Every individual has
their own task and capabilities, and jealousy will achieve nothing.

Arguments are usually started by individuals; so also can peace be achieved
by the efforts of individuals.  There is a famous story told of a child who
continually annoyed his father by giving him no peace.  In desperation he
took a map of the world, tore it into many pieces and told his son to put
the jigsaw puzzle back together showing the map of the world.  Hoping to
enjoy the rest of the evening, the father settled down with a good book.  No
sooner had he made himself comfortable the son returned with the task duly
completed.  In complete amazement the father asked how such a young person
could put the world together in such a short time.

The child's answer is a message for all.  He replied "On the reverse of the
map was a picture of a person.  I put the person together and the world fell
into place."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Gemara relates that one who sees a river in a dream can expect to find<br />
Shalom, peace. A river is beautiful and useful when it stays within its<br />
boundaries, and so destructive when it overflows.  Peace requires each<br />
person to recognise his place and the unique roll he has to play, while at<br />
the same time recognising the contributions and worth of his fellow man.<br />
Rav Zusya was asked if he would like to change places with Abraham our<br />
Patriarch.  His response was that only one Abraham was created and one<br />
Zusya, and nothing could be gained by changing places.  Every individual has<br />
their own task and capabilities, and jealousy will achieve nothing.</p>
<p>Arguments are usually started by individuals; so also can peace be achieved<br />
by the efforts of individuals.  There is a famous story told of a child who<br />
continually annoyed his father by giving him no peace.  In desperation he<br />
took a map of the world, tore it into many pieces and told his son to put<br />
the jigsaw puzzle back together showing the map of the world.  Hoping to<br />
enjoy the rest of the evening, the father settled down with a good book.  No<br />
sooner had he made himself comfortable the son returned with the task duly<br />
completed.  In complete amazement the father asked how such a young person<br />
could put the world together in such a short time.</p>
<p>The child&#8217;s answer is a message for all.  He replied &#8220;On the reverse of the<br />
map was a picture of a person.  I put the person together and the world fell<br />
into place.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Brown</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-69</guid>
		<description>...and then there were the star bellied sneeches who, when sneeches had no stars put stars on the bellies of the important ones. When less important sneeches began adding stars to their own bellies the self important sneeches added two stars and so on, and so on. (I think credit goes to Dr. Seuss for this story) Is it sane or insane to copy the markings (values, actions etc.) of someone you respect, look up to or wish to suck up to? 

 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and then there were the star bellied sneeches who, when sneeches had no stars put stars on the bellies of the important ones. When less important sneeches began adding stars to their own bellies the self important sneeches added two stars and so on, and so on. (I think credit goes to Dr. Seuss for this story) Is it sane or insane to copy the markings (values, actions etc.) of someone you respect, look up to or wish to suck up to?</p>
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		<title>By: Yonathan "Ghengis Kahn" the Great.</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Yonathan "Ghengis Kahn" the Great.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Oct 2005 23:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-35</guid>
		<description>HAH! YOU HAVE ALL EATEN GRAIN YOU WORTHLESS GRAIN EATERS! IT'S WRITTEN ALL OVER YOUR FORHEADS: "I'VE BEEN EATING THE GRAIN (AGAIN)". PHAH! I LOOK DOWN UPON YOU GRAIN RIDDEN MASSES! I WOULD NEVER DO SUCH A SILLY THING AS EAT GRAIN IN ONE OF THOSE INFAMOUS EAT-GRAIN-AND-GO-CRAZY-YEAR-THINGIES!!!!! HAH! I WATCH THE NEWS! I KNOW WHEN THEY'RE COMING! AND IF I DON'T WATCH THE NEWS CAUSE I'M BUSY DOING SOMETHING ELSE (like drinking tea or eating cake), I HAVE TIVO ANYWAY! SO I CAN WATCH THE NEWS LATER, AFTER THE BROADCAST BUT BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE EAT-GRAIN-AND-GO-CRAZY-YEAR-THINGIE!!! TSAH! HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES! NOTHING WRONG WITH APPLES! MUCH BETTER THEN THAT GOSH DARNED GRAIN! WHICH I WOULD NEVER EAT! NEVER!!! i think...or wait...did i...ehm...HAH WELL OK I GUESS I DID HAVE SOME GRAIN (i was out of biscuits) BUT LOOK!!!! I MARKED MY FORHEAD!! HAH! SO AT LEAST I KNOW THAT I ATE GRAIN! HAH! YET AGAIN I HAVE OUTSMARTED YOU! Well technically i can't see the mark myself but...WELL AT LEAST YOU CAN ALL SEE THAT I ATE THE GRAIN! YOU GRAIN....ehm....YOU! HAH!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HAH! YOU HAVE ALL EATEN GRAIN YOU WORTHLESS GRAIN EATERS! IT&#8217;S WRITTEN ALL OVER YOUR FORHEADS: &#8220;I&#8217;VE BEEN EATING THE GRAIN (AGAIN)&#8221;. PHAH! I LOOK DOWN UPON YOU GRAIN RIDDEN MASSES! I WOULD NEVER DO SUCH A SILLY THING AS EAT GRAIN IN ONE OF THOSE INFAMOUS EAT-GRAIN-AND-GO-CRAZY-YEAR-THINGIES!!!!! HAH! I WATCH THE NEWS! I KNOW WHEN THEY&#8217;RE COMING! AND IF I DON&#8217;T WATCH THE NEWS CAUSE I&#8217;M BUSY DOING SOMETHING ELSE (like drinking tea or eating cake), I HAVE TIVO ANYWAY! SO I CAN WATCH THE NEWS LATER, AFTER THE BROADCAST BUT BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF THE EAT-GRAIN-AND-GO-CRAZY-YEAR-THINGIE!!! TSAH! HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES! NOTHING WRONG WITH APPLES! MUCH BETTER THEN THAT GOSH DARNED GRAIN! WHICH I WOULD NEVER EAT! NEVER!!! i think&#8230;or wait&#8230;did i&#8230;ehm&#8230;HAH WELL OK I GUESS I DID HAVE SOME GRAIN (i was out of biscuits) BUT LOOK!!!! I MARKED MY FORHEAD!! HAH! SO AT LEAST I KNOW THAT I ATE GRAIN! HAH! YET AGAIN I HAVE OUTSMARTED YOU! Well technically i can&#8217;t see the mark myself but&#8230;WELL AT LEAST YOU CAN ALL SEE THAT I ATE THE GRAIN! YOU GRAIN&#8230;.ehm&#8230;.YOU! HAH!</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Eliovson</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Eliovson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Honestly,

That's over my head!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s over my head!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gus</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Gus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-26</guid>
		<description>As an aside, orange is the colour of insanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an aside, orange is the colour of insanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-24</guid>
		<description>This parable is thought provoking.  Thanks!  Here are some thoughts I had.

I've been reading about alchemy lately, and I can't resist trying some of that thinking here, even though it might sound bizarre.  The king and his PM are men (I presume; the king is, at least!).  Masculinity, in the alchemal view, represents ratioanal, systematic thinking, what we might call reason or logic now (yes, it sounds sexist, but isn't; women can have "masculine" aspects too.  I take it as just a token word to represent the idea).  Kings were often used as a symbol of this aspect.  Grain, which is from the earth, has a feminine aspect.  The king consuming grain can be viewed as an experiment in joining the male with the female.  One of the aims of alchemy, the so-called "conjunction," was to unify opposites like these.  However, it was recognized there's a danger to it.  Physically (chemically), the experiment may fail; psychologically, the experimenter may go mad (alchemists, as noted by Jung and others, conflated inner psychological exploration with external matter, projecting their mental states onto the materials they were manipulating; many alchemal texts described a sort of meditation and ascetic lifestyle which went hand in hand with their material experiments).  Greek mythology, for example the myths of Oedipus or Cybelle and Attis, also reflect the dangers.

From that perspective, we can view the king's decision as heroic.  He recognizes the need to unify in spite of the dangers, because ultimately it might lead to a transmutation in his kingdom. The mark is a sort of breadcrumb meant to remind him and the PM of their quest.  When I first read this story, I imagined the mark was black, which is interestingly fitting and first led me to think of alchemy.  Melancholy ('blacker than black') was viewed as a necessary transient state in any transmutation.  When lead is heated and melted, it apparently turns black until some other ingredient is added to it.  Psychologically, meditation often leads to melancholy, a dangerous depression, before it yields any positive results.  A black mark on the forehead might be thought of as representing this dangerous, though transient, state of mind.

Which, I think, speaks to the question of willfully bringing about destruction.  Sometimes you have to break something in order to fix it.  You have to disrupt the current equilibrium (enter a dangerous chaos) in order to reach a better one.  This is an ancient pattern of thought, and I can't help thinking this parable is speaking to the same idea.  It's a hopeful interpretation.

By the way, a random connection.  Someone mentioned Isaac Newton.  Newton studied alchemy through most of his life.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This parable is thought provoking.  Thanks!  Here are some thoughts I had.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been reading about alchemy lately, and I can&#8217;t resist trying some of that thinking here, even though it might sound bizarre.  The king and his PM are men (I presume; the king is, at least!).  Masculinity, in the alchemal view, represents ratioanal, systematic thinking, what we might call reason or logic now (yes, it sounds sexist, but isn&#8217;t; women can have &#8220;masculine&#8221; aspects too.  I take it as just a token word to represent the idea).  Kings were often used as a symbol of this aspect.  Grain, which is from the earth, has a feminine aspect.  The king consuming grain can be viewed as an experiment in joining the male with the female.  One of the aims of alchemy, the so-called &#8220;conjunction,&#8221; was to unify opposites like these.  However, it was recognized there&#8217;s a danger to it.  Physically (chemically), the experiment may fail; psychologically, the experimenter may go mad (alchemists, as noted by Jung and others, conflated inner psychological exploration with external matter, projecting their mental states onto the materials they were manipulating; many alchemal texts described a sort of meditation and ascetic lifestyle which went hand in hand with their material experiments).  Greek mythology, for example the myths of Oedipus or Cybelle and Attis, also reflect the dangers.</p>
<p>From that perspective, we can view the king&#8217;s decision as heroic.  He recognizes the need to unify in spite of the dangers, because ultimately it might lead to a transmutation in his kingdom. The mark is a sort of breadcrumb meant to remind him and the PM of their quest.  When I first read this story, I imagined the mark was black, which is interestingly fitting and first led me to think of alchemy.  Melancholy (&#8217;blacker than black&#8217;) was viewed as a necessary transient state in any transmutation.  When lead is heated and melted, it apparently turns black until some other ingredient is added to it.  Psychologically, meditation often leads to melancholy, a dangerous depression, before it yields any positive results.  A black mark on the forehead might be thought of as representing this dangerous, though transient, state of mind.</p>
<p>Which, I think, speaks to the question of willfully bringing about destruction.  Sometimes you have to break something in order to fix it.  You have to disrupt the current equilibrium (enter a dangerous chaos) in order to reach a better one.  This is an ancient pattern of thought, and I can&#8217;t help thinking this parable is speaking to the same idea.  It&#8217;s a hopeful interpretation.</p>
<p>By the way, a random connection.  Someone mentioned Isaac Newton.  Newton studied alchemy through most of his life.</p>
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		<title>By: andrewdavis</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>andrewdavis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-21</guid>
		<description>
As individuals, rational or otherwise, we often believe we are the possessors of a â€œtruthâ€ which is not shared by those around us. PETA demonstrators, zoophiliacs and radical environmentalists are all motivated by a keen sense that they are the â€˜saneâ€™ ones in a world gone mad. And in my view, they are all quite correct. Each and every one of these people, however, is dependent upon society for all of their needs. The PETA demonstrator uses the services of a dry-cleaner who is not a vegetarian. The zoophiliac must conceal the loving sexual relationship she has with her pet in order to keep her job at the bank. The radical environmentalist contributes through his consumption, no matter how moderate, in the processes of deforestation and pollution that he wishes to avert. All of these people have to participate in the insane world, but in their own ways they put marks on their heads to remind themselves and each other that they are safeguarding the truth even as they do so.

Iâ€™ve probably missed the point completely, it wouldnâ€™t be the first time.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As individuals, rational or otherwise, we often believe we are the possessors of a â€œtruthâ€ which is not shared by those around us. PETA demonstrators, zoophiliacs and radical environmentalists are all motivated by a keen sense that they are the â€˜saneâ€™ ones in a world gone mad. And in my view, they are all quite correct. Each and every one of these people, however, is dependent upon society for all of their needs. The PETA demonstrator uses the services of a dry-cleaner who is not a vegetarian. The zoophiliac must conceal the loving sexual relationship she has with her pet in order to keep her job at the bank. The radical environmentalist contributes through his consumption, no matter how moderate, in the processes of deforestation and pollution that he wishes to avert. All of these people have to participate in the insane world, but in their own ways they put marks on their heads to remind themselves and each other that they are safeguarding the truth even as they do so.</p>
<p>Iâ€™ve probably missed the point completely, it wouldnâ€™t be the first time.</p>
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		<title>By: marge schiller</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-19</link>
		<dc:creator>marge schiller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 16:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-19</guid>
		<description>Dear Natalie,
I am amazed at how true the "Rabbi" Stories are- each culture has a group of story tellers  that are the wisdom keepers and spreaders of truth. I think of Thomas One Wolf and Alyce Smith Cooper who tell stories from Native People and African American traditions and I think of my Grandparents and then I think of the Rabbis...
Thanks for 'mark you forehead'
My husband loves to say "If all the world were fools they wold not be known as such"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Natalie,<br />
I am amazed at how true the &#8220;Rabbi&#8221; Stories are- each culture has a group of story tellers  that are the wisdom keepers and spreaders of truth. I think of Thomas One Wolf and Alyce Smith Cooper who tell stories from Native People and African American traditions and I think of my Grandparents and then I think of the Rabbis&#8230;<br />
Thanks for &#8216;mark you forehead&#8217;<br />
My husband loves to say &#8220;If all the world were fools they wold not be known as such&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Peter-William</title>
		<link>http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter-William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://natalieshell.com/2005/09/19/mark-your-forehead/#comment-18</guid>
		<description>The whole story raises a number of questions.  Perhaps one shouldn't 
raise them because it is not the sort of tale that one starts sniffing 
around too much: the point would be lost.  However, the outcome is, at 
face value, illogical.

The king and his PM recognise their insanity by seeing the 
marks on  on each other's forehead.  But who are they to make 
judgements on themselves as to their insanity?  You cannot just 
acquiesce to the definition of insanity by virtue of a label - even if 
you have defined yourself as insane.

The gifted are often insane by normal measure.  The greatest ever 
advance in scientific knowledge was made by Isaac Newton - a man who 
was clearly autistic.  In more recent times, John F. Nash Jnr won a 
share of the Nobel Prize for economics (1994).  He is a schizophrenic 
and he knows it.  Here is a man who solved Fermat's last theorem when 
at high school.  Many years of treatment, much of it against his will, 
prevented him from thinking.  Now, free of medication, he has placed 
his insanity in a part of his mind that recognises that some of what 
he thinks he sees is not physically tangible.  So now he is free. You 
must read his autobiography at: 

http://nobelprize.org/economics/laureates/1994/nash-autobio.html

Perhaps his comment about Zarathustra was a bit flip - even if it made 
a relevant point.

However, I have to say this, and it contradicts what I said about 
raising questions, but the moral tale falls apart with the king and 
his PM keeping knowledge of their insanity to themselves. As a 
gnostic, I feel strongly that knowledge is our only salvation. 
Insanity, therefore, should be encouraged to increase our 
understanding and insights.  The king and his PM could have told the 
people that insanity would beset them on eating the grain and 
encourage them to mark their foreheads too. Who knows what gems would have revealed themselves with an entire nation becoming insane.

Peter-William</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole story raises a number of questions.  Perhaps one shouldn&#8217;t<br />
raise them because it is not the sort of tale that one starts sniffing<br />
around too much: the point would be lost.  However, the outcome is, at<br />
face value, illogical.</p>
<p>The king and his PM recognise their insanity by seeing the<br />
marks on  on each other&#8217;s forehead.  But who are they to make<br />
judgements on themselves as to their insanity?  You cannot just<br />
acquiesce to the definition of insanity by virtue of a label - even if<br />
you have defined yourself as insane.</p>
<p>The gifted are often insane by normal measure.  The greatest ever<br />
advance in scientific knowledge was made by Isaac Newton - a man who<br />
was clearly autistic.  In more recent times, John F. Nash Jnr won a<br />
share of the Nobel Prize for economics (1994).  He is a schizophrenic<br />
and he knows it.  Here is a man who solved Fermat&#8217;s last theorem when<br />
at high school.  Many years of treatment, much of it against his will,<br />
prevented him from thinking.  Now, free of medication, he has placed<br />
his insanity in a part of his mind that recognises that some of what<br />
he thinks he sees is not physically tangible.  So now he is free. You<br />
must read his autobiography at: </p>
<p><a href="http://nobelprize.org/economics/laureates/1994/nash-autobio.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/nobelprize.org/economics/laureates/1994/nash-autobio.html?referer=');">http://nobelprize.org/economics/laureates/1994/nash-autobio.html</a></p>
<p>Perhaps his comment about Zarathustra was a bit flip - even if it made<br />
a relevant point.</p>
<p>However, I have to say this, and it contradicts what I said about<br />
raising questions, but the moral tale falls apart with the king and<br />
his PM keeping knowledge of their insanity to themselves. As a<br />
gnostic, I feel strongly that knowledge is our only salvation.<br />
Insanity, therefore, should be encouraged to increase our<br />
understanding and insights.  The king and his PM could have told the<br />
people that insanity would beset them on eating the grain and<br />
encourage them to mark their foreheads too. Who knows what gems would have revealed themselves with an entire nation becoming insane.</p>
<p>Peter-William</p>
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